Heulthread Melde Dich an, um diesen Inhalt zu abonnieren 56 56

[DerTed 2360]

Das kommt mindestens ein Mal am Tag Ludi, und das ist offensichtlich nicht was ich meine.

[Max--Power-- 1517]

Was du kannst ist Zeitverschwenden, kannst du das ausweiten auf andere Menschen?

[DerTed 2360]

huh?

[DerTed 2360]

tfw wenn man bald kein 21 Jähriger loser mehr sein wird

[DerTed 2360]

tfw man in seinem leben niemals akzentfreies englisch sprechen wird

[Gast ImWithNoobs]

hab mir heute den ganzen tag sachen gegeben wie man gut in irgendwas wird, alle sagen immer als erstes, dass man die sache die man macht lieben muss um richtig gut drin zu werden. gg. scheitert bei mir schon am ersten schritt.

Das denke ich ist eigentlich garnicht nötig. Ich denke es ist wichtig zu verstehen, dass Bildung halt nicht nur so ein abstraktes politisches Schlagwort ist, um zu betonen wie wichtig einem doch die Zukunft der Jugend sei. Die meisten Jobs brauchen wenig Bildung im Vergleich zu den Sachen, die man an der Schule/Uni lernt. Es geht doch darum, die Welt zu verstehen und nur wer die Welt versteht kann auch in ihr bestehen. Die Welt verändert sich auch ständig, deswegen hat man auch nie ausgelernt.

[wasntme 1409]

tfw man in seinem leben niemals akzentfreies englisch sprechen wird

2 Jahre studieren oder arbeiten in England reichen. Dafür müsste man jedoch aus seiner Komfortzone rauskommen und sich neuen Herausforderungen stellen. Also wirst du in deinem Leben wohl nie akzentfreies Englisch sprechen. Too bad.

[Gast Ladydomoarigato]

Eine tolle Frau kennengelernt und nicht eskaliert .... Hello Friendzone

[Max--Power-- 1517]

Wer nicht eskaliert onaniert.

[DerTed 2360]

tfw man in seinem leben niemals akzentfreies englisch sprechen wird

2 Jahre studieren oder arbeiten in England reichen. Dafür müsste man jedoch aus seiner Komfortzone rauskommen und sich neuen Herausforderungen stellen. Also wirst du in deinem Leben wohl nie akzentfreies Englisch sprechen. Too bad.

Schwarznegger ist mit 19 in die USA, hat dort sein ganzes Leben gelebt und jeder weiß ja wie sein Englisch klingt... Das gleiche bei zwei Kollegen welche schon seit 3 Jahren in den USA studieren, ist zwar besser geworden aber unter Akzentfrei verstehe ich was anderes.

Februar 15, 2016 bearbeitet von DerTed

[wasntme 1409]

Jo, ich bin mit 22 nach UK, hab dort bis 24 gelebt. Ergebnis: nahezu akzentfrei. In den folgenden Jahren Englisch täglich privat und im Geschäftsumfeld verwendet. Mittlerweile nicht nur akzentfrei sondern bereits soweit, dass ich verschiedene regionale Dialekte aus UK und USA sprechen kann. Was interessiert mich ob Schwarzenegger das kann oder nicht?

[DerTed 2360]

Ah ok, alles klar. Ich kenne auch so Leute die behaupten akzentfrei zu sprechen.

[Max--Power-- 1517]

Is haltn Unterschied ob du in ein Mileu zeihst wo du nicht unbedingt Englisch sprechen musst oder wo du es halt unbedingt musst.

Schwarzenegger musste es nicht, der hat mit seinen Muskeln gesprochen.

[Max--Power-- 1517]

Was glaubt ihr wohl warum es hier Menschen in Deutschland gibt, die nach 20 jahren noch nicht richtig Deutsch sprechen können. Einfach weil sie es nie mussten und immer so durch gekommen sind.

Von Talenten spreche ich erstmal nicht. Ich glaube aber, dass ein gewissen Maß an Empathie auch sehr dabei hilft, wenn man eine Sprache im Ursprungsland lernt.

[DerTed 2360]

Wenn man sich im Internet umsieht, dann sprechen die meisten Untersuchungen dafür, dass 10 das "magische" Alter ist um eine Sprache akzentfrei zu sprechen. Aber im PUF treiben sich natürlich mal wieder Übermenschen rum.

[Max--Power-- 1517]

DU spricht von Magie und Beobachtungen. Merkst du was?

[DerTed 2360]

Nein, ich spreche von Studien. Falls für dich die Begriffe "Magie" und "Untersuchung" nicht unterscheiden, dann brauchen wir gar nicht reden.

[DerTed 2360]

One of the reasons the feral children data are difficult to assess is that the brains of these children are often underdeveloped or have developed differently because they weren't stimulated with language at a young age. (For a more scientific explanation of the how of this, see Curtiss et al 544-545+). Although age is often speculated to be a factor in acquiring native competence, estimates on the cutoff have ranged from as low as 3-4 to as high as puberty.

Infant Studies of Phoneme Perception
An important question to keep in mind is, why should skill in acquiring a new phonological system decrease because of age? Most cognitive abilities get remarkably better with age, assuming typical development. Of course, there are obvious factors like motivation (generally not as high for L2 learners), phonological interference, or different method of acquisition (generally by analytical study and reflection than immersion for L2 learners), but the biggest theory seems to be currently that it is because, while young infants are like a phonological tabula rasa, after exposure to their native language, they narrow their focus to only pay attention to the contrasts which differentiate meaning -- what are traditionally called phonemes. They lose the ability to learn how to produce and differentiate any sound.

Even very young children show decreased sensitivity to contrasts not present in their native language. For example, Hindi has many contrasts that English doesn't, for example differentiating aspirated and unaspirated stops like [pʰal] and [pal]. Werker and Tees (1984) trained infants to expect a reward (a little puppet show) when they heard aspirated syllables (this is called a conditioned head turn technique). Then, they tested them, playing aspirated and unaspirated stops and measuring how often the infants turned at the appropriate times. If they failed to turn after hearing an aspirated stop, this was counted as a miss, and if they turned after hearing an unaspirated sound, this was counted as a false alarm. At 6-8 months, infants scored well -- they had fewer than 2/10 misses or false alarms -- while those in the 10-12 month group did remarkably poorly -- approximately only 2/10 correct hits. I cannot find the citation, but I have heard vocalic categories are cemented even earlier. And keep in mind that this is before these infants are even babbling!

Immigrant and Foreign Language Learner Studies
There have been studies looking at the acquisition of foreign language by people of varying ages, or by immigrants with varying age-of-arrival, and some (Johnson and Newport 1989) support the idea of a critical period and others (Snow and Hoefnagel-Höhle 1978) do not. It is important to note that these studies often look at both knowledge of grammar and pronunciation and I have unfortunately not found any studies specifically related to accent -- though I will add them if I come across them. These studies generally rely on a battery of tests to assess grammatical competence (e.g. grammaticality judgments) and native speakers to rate the degree of the subjects' accent. In general, it seems that a critical period for phonology is much more supported than a critical period for grammar -- acquisition of grammar is much more linked to cognitive ability in adults, although in young children, cognitive ability has no effect (e.g. Flege et al 1999, DeKeyser 2000).

Conclusion
So yes, there does seem to be evidence for a cutoff in acquiring native-like phonology, from immigrant studies and SLA studies backed up by infant perception studies. What I would take from this, though, is that in addition to lost competence in implicit learning mechanisms, when we already have one language to work with, we will rely more on overt analysis and comparison to learn a foreign language. And while grammars are very good at detailing correct syntax and morphology, they are often abysmally poor and lazy at instructing learners in pronouncing and distinguishing foreign phonemes. (This is because they are often not written by linguists.) Add to that the fact that having an accent is not terribly stigmatized (but poor grammar is) and it's no surprise that L2 learners will often not develop a great accent.

• The Linguistic Development of Genie
  Author(s): Susan Curtiss, Victoria Fromkin, Stephen Krashen, David Rigler and Marilyn Rigler
  Source: Language, Vol. 50, No. 3 (Sep., 1974), pp. 528-554 Published by: Linguistic Society of America Article

• The Critical Period for Language Acquisition: Evidence from Second Language Learning
  Author(s): Catherine E. Snow and Marian Hoefnagel-Höhle
  Source: Child Development, Vol. 49, No. 4 (Dec., 1978), pp. 1114-1128 Published by: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the Society for Research in Child Development

• Critical period effects in second language learning: The influence of maturational state on the acquisition of English as a second language
  Author(s): Jacqueline S Johnson, Elissa L Newport,
  Source: Cognitive Psychology, Volume 21, Issue 1, January 1989, Pages 60-99, ISSN 0010-0285, 10.1016/0010-0285(89)90003-0.

• Age Constraints on Second-Language Acquisition
  Author(s): James Emil Flege, Grace H. Yeni-Komshian, Serena Liu
  Source: Journal of Memory and Language, Volume 41, Issue 1, July 1999, Pages 78-104

• The Robustness of Critical Period Effects in Second Language Acquisition.
  Author(s): Robert M. DeKeyser
  Source: Studies in Second Language Acquisition, 22 , 2000, pp 499-533

[Max--Power-- 1517]

One of the reasons the feral children data are difficult to assess is that the brains of these children are often underdeveloped or have developed differently because they weren't stimulated with language at a young age. (For a more scientific explanation of the how of this, see Curtiss et al 544-545+). Although age is often speculated to be a factor in acquiring native competence, estimates on the cutoff have ranged from as low as 3-4 to as high as puberty.

Infant Studies of Phoneme Perception

An important question to keep in mind is, why should skill in acquiring a new phonological system decrease because of age? Most cognitive abilities get remarkably better with age, assuming typical development. Of course, there are obvious factors like motivation (generally not as high for L2 learners), phonological interference, or different method of acquisition (generally by analytical study and reflection than immersion for L2 learners), but the biggest theory seems to be currently that it is because, while young infants are like a phonological tabula rasa, after exposure to their native language, they narrow their focus to only pay attention to the contrasts which differentiate meaning -- what are traditionally called phonemes. They lose the ability to learn how to produce and differentiate any sound.

Even very young children show decreased sensitivity to contrasts not present in their native language. For example, Hindi has many contrasts that English doesn't, for example differentiating aspirated and unaspirated stops like [pʰal] and [pal]. Werker and Tees (1984) trained infants to expect a reward (a little puppet show) when they heard aspirated syllables (this is called a conditioned head turn technique). Then, they tested them, playing aspirated and unaspirated stops and measuring how often the infants turned at the appropriate times. If they failed to turn after hearing an aspirated stop, this was counted as a miss, and if they turned after hearing an unaspirated sound, this was counted as a false alarm. At 6-8 months, infants scored well -- they had fewer than 2/10 misses or false alarms -- while those in the 10-12 month group did remarkably poorly -- approximately only 2/10 correct hits. I cannot find the citation, but I have heard vocalic categories are cemented even earlier. And keep in mind that this is before these infants are even babbling!

Immigrant and Foreign Language Learner Studies

There have been studies looking at the acquisition of foreign language by people of varying ages, or by immigrants with varying age-of-arrival, and some (Johnson and Newport 1989) support the idea of a critical period and others (Snow and Hoefnagel-Höhle 1978) do not. It is important to note that these studies often look at both knowledge of grammar and pronunciation and I have unfortunately not found any studies specifically related to accent -- though I will add them if I come across them. These studies generally rely on a battery of tests to assess grammatical competence (e.g. grammaticality judgments) and native speakers to rate the degree of the subjects' accent. In general, it seems that a critical period for phonology is much more supported than a critical period for grammar -- acquisition of grammar is much more linked to cognitive ability in adults, although in young children, cognitive ability has no effect (e.g. Flege et al 1999, DeKeyser 2000).

Conclusion

So yes, there does seem to be evidence for a cutoff in acquiring native-like phonology, from immigrant studies and SLA studies backed up by infant perception studies. What I would take from this, though, is that in addition to lost competence in implicit learning mechanisms, when we already have one language to work with, we will rely more on overt analysis and comparison to learn a foreign language. And while grammars are very good at detailing correct syntax and morphology, they are often abysmally poor and lazy at instructing learners in pronouncing and distinguishing foreign phonemes. (This is because they are often not written by linguists.) Add to that the fact that having an accent is not terribly stigmatized (but poor grammar is) and it's no surprise that L2 learners will often not develop a great accent.

• The Linguistic Development of Genie

  Author(s): Susan Curtiss, Victoria Fromkin, Stephen Krashen, David Rigler and Marilyn Rigler

  Source: Language, Vol. 50, No. 3 (Sep., 1974), pp. 528-554 Published by: Linguistic Society of America Article

• The Critical Period for Language Acquisition: Evidence from Second Language Learning

  Author(s): Catherine E. Snow and Marian Hoefnagel-Höhle

  Source: Child Development, Vol. 49, No. 4 (Dec., 1978), pp. 1114-1128 Published by: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the Society for Research in Child Development

• Critical period effects in second language learning: The influence of maturational state on the acquisition of English as a second language

  Author(s): Jacqueline S Johnson, Elissa L Newport,

  Source: Cognitive Psychology, Volume 21, Issue 1, January 1989, Pages 60-99, ISSN 0010-0285, 10.1016/0010-0285(89)90003-0.

• Age Constraints on Second-Language Acquisition

  Author(s): James Emil Flege, Grace H. Yeni-Komshian, Serena Liu

  Source: Journal of Memory and Language, Volume 41, Issue 1, July 1999, Pages 78-104

• The Robustness of Critical Period Effects in Second Language Acquisition.

  Author(s): Robert M. DeKeyser

  Source: Studies in Second Language Acquisition, 22 , 2000, pp 499-533

Das Problem ist doch, das man in dieser Studie gar nicht untersucht hat, wie häufig, wie geduldig oder wie verbissen man es versucht hat. Toll jetzt wissen wir das man mit 25 weniger schnell lernt als mit 15. Ja, aber da du das weißt, weißt du auch wie du dir helfen kannst, in dem du dich eifnach mehr anstrengst.

Du musst die Physiologie deines Körpers nicht einfach hinnehmen, wenn du dich über diese transzendieren kannst.

[DerTed 2360]

Du musst die Physiologie deines Körpers nicht einfach hinnehmen, wenn du dich über diese transzendieren kannst.

here we go again...

[LeDe 3576]

Werter Max

Du hast den Subtext seiner Aussage nicht verstanden, die da lautet:

"Miniminimi...siehst Du, es ist wissenschaftlich bestätigt, dass es für mich zu spät ist da irgendwie gut werden zu können. Vorbei...minimminimi..."

LeDe

[Gast ImWithNoobs]

Willst du akzentfrei labern, musst du dir das abtrainieren. Ist doch offensichtlich.

[Max--Power-- 1517]

Werter Max

Du hast den Subtext seiner Aussage nicht verstanden, die da lautet:

"Miniminimi...siehst Du, es ist wissenschaftlich bestätigt, dass es für mich zu spät ist da irgendwie gut werden zu können. Vorbei...minimminimi..."

LeDe

Werter Le

Ich bin nicht dumm.

[DerTed 2360]

Willst du akzentfrei labern, musst du dir das abtrainieren. Ist doch offensichtlich.

Bin schon zu alt dafür. Ich kenne einfach Leute die mit 8 nach Deutschland gekommen sind, mit denen ich die gesamte Schulzeit verbracht habe und welche trotzdem einen Akzent haben.

[Maandag 1690]

Und?